# How to design an experiment to quantify back radiation from atmospheric carbon dioxide?

Based on our current knowledge of CO$_2$ and current instrumental techniques, how big would a laboratory sample of air with 400ppm of CO$_2$ need to be in order to quantify the back radiation from CO$_2$?

I am envisioning a large container with many cubic metres of gas, probably thermally isolated longitudinally and with a radiative IR input at one end (A) plus measuring apparatus at the other end (B) and some distributed thermistors throughout. We know the thermal input at A, measure the thermal output at the B and measure the trapped thermal energy via the thermistors.

I would like to get a result with something like +/- 1% accuracy. Would this be possible? Assume I have a budget of at least \$10,000,000.

• I suspect this can be done with less gas volume and much less money – Gimelist Apr 17 '17 at 5:32
• this question might be among the top ten of hardest to answer,there is so many things that needs to be solved to get a correct measurment. – trond hansen Apr 21 '17 at 11:05

The thing is, we don´t have any instruments(to my knowledge) to measure the intensity of that radiation. But, we measure the intensity of atmospheric emission from space with satellites, which is seen as the "effective temperature". Logically this is the same as the net radiation downwards. And heat transfer then confirms that no net radiation arrives at the surface. Which is equal to "no radiation at all". Because "net" radiation is the only radiation that can heat anything.

There are lots of people claiming that measurements done with IR sensors and pyrgeometers confirm backradiation. This is not true and it is based on a misunderstanding of the function of the device, as well as misapplication of the stefan-boltzmann equation. Both IR-thermometers and pyrgeometers use the s-b equation in combination with a thermocouple or thermopile(pyrgeometer). They are both a kind of more advanced and more sensitive thermometers. The thermopile consist of a sensor measuring a gradient across itself indirectly by changes in resistance acting on a current through the thermopile. So, by determining the gradient in the thermopile, it can sense the amount of heat transferred to the surroundings using the s-b equation. When someone claims measurements show "back-radiation", they refer to measurements done with these devices. As most interested people understand, a measurement of heat transfer away from the device, cannot show incoming radiation from a colder atmosphere. If you measure something hotter than the temperature of the thermopile, sure, then you have high accuracy. But a measurement of "back-radiation" from the atmosphere is per definition a measurement of something colder than the device. Because the atmosphere is almost always colder(exception is inversion, but that is not relevant). So any measurement of backradiation made from the surface, is a measurement of nothing. It is simply what the device doesn´t measure coming from the atmosphere. This is what I mean with "misapplication" of the s-b equation. It can not, and should not, be used that way. That is, to add flux densities that are not calculated as "net" transfer.

In regards to your suggested experiment. Unless the gas is hotter than the instruments(if using IR-instruments), you will measure a heat sink, not any backradiation. And, yes, that is what greenhouse gases really are. Heat sinks. The earth emit its heat to the ultimate bottomless heat sink in space, the only observed infinity, and greenhouse gases are added heat sinks along the highway for heat, that leads to 3 Kelvin space.

• I am aware of the limitations on using pyrgeometers as indeed anyone will be if they bothered to actually read the manufacturers manuals and understood how they work and what they can and cannot do. It amazes me that even well educated professors think they can just grab some instrument out of the suppliers catalogue and use it in a lab experiment without even thinking about how said instrument works.(or RTFM). Some clever people sure are dumb ! Nice to see you are not one of them. – user7733 May 14 '17 at 22:59

Check out www.arm.gov an ongoing set of Atmospheric Radiation Measurement experiments at many locations around the globe that measures many aspects of the atmosphere including atmospheric back radiation using infra-red spectroscopy. This work started in the mid 90's. Some of the cleanest data comes from the https://www.arm.gov/tour/north-slope.html North Slope of Alaska ARM research station.

Here are some articles on the research.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14240

https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2015/02/25/co2-greenhouse-effect-increase/

It seems like you use a tube of sufficient volume that the effects of the interior walls are de minimus on the air in the tube, and long enough for there to be some temperature gradient top to bottom. Then you need a "piston" made of wire mess of a material with high emissivity. The wire mesh is so that the piston has de minimus effect on convection. Finally you need a hot plate at the bottom that produces a known amount of radiation and thermometer close to the plate to monitor temperature. Then you measure the temperate with "no piston" in the tube, and compare with the piston in the tube at various distances from the plate.

It seems this would enable one to prove/disprove back-radition.